repetitious and conscious deceptions by Steven Callahan

posts by Steven Callahan to proa_file forum:

Part 2(b): Jzerro, that miserable dog
"your logic defies logic", May 10

comments: May 24
a disservice to those really interested in proas, Stay tuned for more, stiffening of the beams, the hull flying, Jzerro did not fail as a boat, overtake waves when running, water ballast, solid water on the deck, anything but academic, "constantly" meaning regularly

Part 4: Those Islanders; What Where They Thinking? May 24

comments: May 25
did not have to shift ballast frequently on Jzerro, method of determining RM, adding to higher levels of normal stress on the beams, excess RM can be as much of a problem as too little, it is futile and is simply to reply to utter nonsense

repetitious and conscious deceptions
Sep 8, 2011

Rob, get real. 18 point reply Sep 8, 2011

beam loads Sep 10, 2011

freedom 20 masts Sep 26, 2011

so long ProaFile Sep 26, 2011

www.stevencallahan.net

John, I appreciate your intervention. It has become so very tiresome to address issues Rob raises, only to have him repeat oversimplified soundbites and outright disinformation again and again. I do hope, though, that you will allow me to respond to some of his posts more directly since he was free to throw them out there.

I would like to note, however, that personal attacks themselves are a grey area. When Rob trashes the work of others, that can be kind of personal, and frankly, if I question his tactics and basic approach, is that not personal? I believe the real question is when is a personal attack over the line (such as when he just made up that I was a drunk), and when do they bear directly on maintaining or building an honest discussion of the subject at hand? And more to the point, should not repetitive dishonesty and tactics to frustrate honest discussion also not be a reason for banning somebody from the group?

For example, Rob uses routinely several tactics that make it useless to many of us who would otherwise like to explore honestly and openly the many complexities of boat design and proa design in particular. I have worked in numerous aspects of the marine business since 1974, and actually began sailing and building multihulls in the 1960s, and although, like other businesses, this one has its share of folks who are less than honest, who oversimplify complex issues to sell their products, and a very few who try to build themselves up by tearing down those who actually accomplish things, I have never, ever before run into such a personality so extreme in these regards as Rob Denny. The lie he offered about me personally is far from the limit of dishonesty. He knows very well that Russ and I had a fabulous time sailing to Tahiti, that Russ's boats don't capsize, that they provide plenty of stability to carry sail enough to outpace many larger pure-racing multihulls and survive gales at sea, that the pod does not slam the sea (in fact, most trimarans with wings and partial wings I've sailed get slammed much more) or cause the boat to trip over it, that the boat is wet (yes, it can be wet at times, and for routine offshore work in cold waters the style of boat could benefit from a solid dodger, but as pointed out before solid dodgers/pilot houses existed well before HarryProas and can be fit to virtually any boat, and Jzerro ranks in my book higher than Newick and other high-performance trimarans I've sailed), yet Rob's repetitious and conscious deceptions (yes, that's a definition of lying) have persisted.

I might care less if it weren't for the fact that nobody can offer more complex views, more nuanced compromises in the design process, or even factual history without him jumping all over it with oversimplified soundbites that have already been more than addressed, and more to the point, are completely incorrect. He's like the kid in the sandbox who is so jealous of other kids' creations that he just has to go stomp on them to make his look the best then goes crying to the teacher when somebody knocks a grain of sand off of his work. It is pathetic.

Seems to me that any functional discussion group must have some guidelines as to what is reasonable to keep functioning. If one is subjected to Denny's nonsense, how can one even reply if he keeps moving the goal post, for example? He has criticized people for making any conclusions about HarryProas that he does not like by claiming they have no right to make comments about them if they do not have direct experience, yet he has no problem making conclusions, personal and otherwise, about boats and people with whom he has little, and in many cases, zero experience. At other times, he criticizes people for discussing Jzerro or other proas WITHOUT comparing them to HarryProas, as if somehow Rob Denny is the center of the universe. He's free to make soundbite oversimplifications and put words into other people's mouths after those words have been corrected more than once and original sources are available, a conscious effort to deceive.

I go over these general points because Rob has asked several times that people from me to Russell be banned from this discussion based on nothing more than they have different (inconvenient) views and/or have called his misrepresentations, deceptions, and hypocrisy for what it is. Is this repetitious pattern not destructive enough to the group's honest interest in the field to remove HIM from the group?

I do not seek this, actually, but some kind of reasonable ground rules for discussion to be functional. I would welcome actual information from a Rob Denny that dealt with what he knows: his own boats. What has worked, what has not? What would he like to try next? And what are links to candid discussions from people who are building and sailing his boats that he claims are out there (specifically, I have searched Sailing Anarchy and other sites for news about his HaryProa crossing of the Tasman, which he claims exists, to almost no avail)? Russ Brown is a good friend, but no God, nor does he claim to be. He offers such honest appraisal of his own boats, and that's what gains my respect. To simply puff one's self up by tearing down the tried and proven, and those who are willing to admit to compromises in their work, seems, frankly, sad, not to mention wasting your readers' time.

Of course, if your readers want to believe that Rob is just so brilliant that he can design a 50 footer with very generous accommodations (presumably carrying quite a cruising load), and with much higher righting moment but two thirds the weight of a 36-foot sports boat with proven performance, that his boats will not only be faster than anything afloat but also cheaper, easier to build, stronger, and more palatial than anything of comparable size, well, feel free. I for one gave up on Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy before I was 5 and prefer now to work in the real world. If this site becomes so devoted to such fantasy, where is the room for serious discussion?

Frankly, it is amazing how one individual can de-rail the intent of a site. The whole scene with Rob has been such a turnoff that I, and several others I know have shied away from offering more about our experiences with multihulls, proas, and the complexities of design issues. So turned off, in fact, that I only recently turned on to your regular ProaFile site, which I find superb. Your videos of early multihull Bermuda races brought back many memories of an era that inspired me, not through Dennyesque bullying and BS but through the comradery we shared in the adventure of mutihull development.

repetitious and conscious deceptions by Steven Callahan, Sep 8, 2011 - (#29604) posted to Proa File International (groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file)